I started doing week three of the FutureLearn Genealogy: Researching your Family Tree course today. https://www.futurelearn.com/courses We are learning all about different repositories for genealogical information. As a result people were putting up different links to sites that they had found were particularly useful. Someone put up a link to http://www.digitalnz.org/records. This repository does all sorts of Newspapers and photos and a whole different bunch of useful records.
I have very few ancestors who lived in New Zealand but I do have three, Robert Lucas, his wife Jane Lucas nee Greathead and their daughter Ella Dorothea Kate Bryant nee Lucas. So, just to have a bit of a play I started playing around with the search functions to see what I could find. I didn’t find Ella Lucas or Jane Lucas nee Greathead but I did come up with a photo for an Elizabeth Lucas nee Voller.
Photograph Elizabeth Lucas
ca 1870s
Title: Photograph: Elizabeth Lucas
Date of Work: ca 1870s
Search Dates: 01 Jan 1870 – 31 Dec 1870
Reference Number: 00-123/1
Record Number: 562398 http://masterton.spydus.co.nz/cgi-bin/spydus.exe/ENQ/OPAC/ARCENQ?RNI=562398
Along with the photo was a tantalising piece of information- Photograph of Elizabeth Lucas dressed in a white lace collar.; Biography / History: Elizabeth Lucas was the daughter of Elizabeth and Abraham Voller. She arrived in Nelson in 1843 and married Robert Lucas in 1850. She died in 1861 at the age of 33 and was buried in the area of the Tauherenikau Race Course. Her body was exhumed in 1862 and re-buried at the Featherston Cemetery. Robert Lucas died in 1877 following head injuries after he fell from a horse.
Clearly this family has an interesting family history that I have to follow up. I knew of the Elizabeth Voller marriage. I also had some idea of an accident being the cause of death of Robert Lucas but I did not have much in the way of detail.
Along with the photograph of Elizabeth Lucas was this photo of a Robert Lucas.
Mr Robert Lucas. Nelson Provincial Museum, Tyree Studio Collection: 39769
http://collection.nelsonmuseum.co.nz/search.do?db=object&view=detail&id=216251
I am uncertain if this is my Robert Lucas. The photo is the right place and the right name but at this stage I do not have confirmation. Robert Lucas was a solicitor at the time of his marriage to Jane Isabella Greathead in 1869, so the clothing is a possible match. At this stage I need to do more research to say for sure that this is my Robert Lucas but it is certainly quite probable.
So this is most certainly a site that I need to explore more. I hardly did any searches and came way with one correct Lucas, one possible Lucas and so far no Greatheads. But very much a starting point to look into more carefully for information on this family. Plus there was an obvious fall from a horse resulting in head injuries that will have to be further explored.
Hello, good to see these photos. I have gathered much on Robert Lucas (1816-1877 NZ) and the Lucas family history back to the early 1600s in England. I also have a photo of Jane Isabella Greathead I obtained. Robert Lucas emigrated from Bristol, England in 1842. He is probably the Robert Lucas (clerk of the horse racing club) “buried where the horses gallop” at “The Tin Hut” Tauherenikau, Wairarapa, NZ. Drop me an email if it is all of interest.
Be aware that in looking through my notes there was another Robert Lucas of Nelson who was also born in the area around Bristol but was not related. He was also the Son of a Samuel Lucas and married an Elizabeth [but Eliz. Anne Pritchard] – Very confusing! That Robert didn’t arrive in NZ until later in 1859 and stayed in Nelson until his death in 1876. He had a book printing company in Bridge Street, Nelson and a son Robert Stepney Lucas. He is most easily differentiated by newspaper articles. More on him is can be found from this researcher here https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lucas-5306
Hello I am a descendant of Robert Lucas and Elizabeth Voller and I have been researching the TWO different Robert Lucas’; both having wives called Elizabeth. I know that the Robert Lucas Nelson Printer is not my one. But what I want to know is WHY are a lot of Family Trees naming my Robert as Robert Doyle Lucas….I can find nothing to link the name Doyle to either of these two Robert Lucas.
Thank you, I will contact you.
Tina
Hi,
Robert was my great great great grandfather and I think he sailed to NZ on the Thomas Sparks. Elizabeth was Voller but am pretty sure her father changed his name from Werner. Any info, refs, pics, anything at all you could share with me on this tree, would be greatly appreciated. I believe the picture is of the Nelson news paper owner not our Robert, but the above info is accurate according to my family. Anything I can help you with please just ask.
Cheers
Tony Lucas
Hi Tony, I believe that you could be right. I am in contact with other family members that are currently helping me further with this branch of the family. I will contact you.
Robert Lucas and Elizabeth Voller are my 3 x gt grandparents. I would love any information and photos that you could pass on.
Elizabeth VOLLER’s parents were Abraham VOLLER (known as ‘Jerry’) and Elisabeth JONES who were married at Ore (next to Hastings), Sussex, England on 01 Aug 1827. When their three daughters Elizabeth 1827, Mary Ann 1830 and Jane 1834 were baptised at Ore, Abraham was known as WARNER. In the 1841 census the family name is written as WELLER. They emigrated to NZ in 1842 on the ship Thomas Sparkes.
Also emigrating to NZ in 1842, on the ship Olympus, were Richard WARNER & Eliza WRIGHT & son Richard, also from Ore. Both Abraham VOLLER & Richard WARNER escaped the s0-called Wairau Massacre at Tuamarina in 1853.
Eliza WRIGHT died early 1865 and it is said that her and Richard’s youngest children Abraham WARNER & Martha WARNER were raised out of the family. Martha was adopted by a family called JERVIS at Richmond. On his marriage and death registrations, Abraham WARNER’s mother is given as Mary DOUGLAS. For various reasons I am confident that Mary DOUGLAS was actually Mary Ann VOLLER the daughter of Abraham VOLLER. She married James MARSH in 1850 but had lots of children to Hugh DOUGLAS (marriage not found, assuming one exists).
Richard WARNER’s mother Elizabeth died at Ore in 1851, the informant at the death being Sarah Ann VOLLER. I think she was Mary Ann FOORD who married Robert VOLLER at Ore in 1843, with the latter actually being Robert VOLLER the brother of Richard WARNER.
Eliza WRIGHT’s brother William was transported to Van Dieman’s Land for 14 years in 1842, 7 years of which was for, in his own words(Tasmania archives, “…stealing my sister’s watch.” The Sussex Advertiser reported the trial saying that the owner of the watch was Richard VOLLER. That means that Richard WARNER was also known as Richard VOLLER. Upon marriage
a wife’s became her husband’s possessions, so from a legal point of view in a court case the watch would certainly be described as Richard’s watch.
Abraham VOLLER was baptised 1804 to John VOLLLER & Elizabeth WARNER who were married at DURLEY in Hampshire in 1803.
All in all, that’s a lot of WARNER versus VOLLER swap-arounds naming-wise for these people. I have wondered if John VOLLER & Elizabeth WARNER the parents of Abraham wee one and the same as Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER at Ore many years later, the parents of Richard WARNER, which would explain why Abraham’s daughter Mary Ann as Mary DOUGLAS might look after Richard & Elizabeth’s youngest son Abraham after Eliza died, but it’s a heck of a stretch name-wise and has to be classed as sheer speculation.
MARRIAGES – 1800-1836 Durley, Southampton, Hampshire, ENGLAND
Date 20 Sep 1803
Surname VOLLER
1st Name John
Parish Southwick
Spouse Surname WARNER
Spouse 1st Name Elizabeth
Spouse Parish Durley
Hampshire Record Office,
Ref: 37M73/PO37/6
Title: Removal Order: John VOLLER, wife Elizabeth and son Abraham (4 years), removed from Durley.
Date: 9 May 1809
“County of Southhampton
To the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor of the Parish of Durley in the said County and to the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor of the Parish of Titchfield in the County aforesaid ——
Upon the complaint of the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor of the Parish of Durley aforesaid in the County of Southhampton unto us whose names are hereunto affixed being two? of HM (His Majesty’s?) Justices of the Peace in and for the said County that:
John Voller his wife Elizabeth and Abraham his son now aged four years have come to inhabit in the Parish of Durley not having gained a legal settlement there nor produced any certificate owning them or any of them to be settled elsewhere and that the said John Voller, Elizabeth his wife and Abraham their child are actually become chargeable to the Parish of Durley. We, the said Justices, upon our proof made thereof as well as upon the Examination of the said John Voller as otherwise and likewise upon our consideration had of the premises? do adjudge the same to be true and we do likewise adjudge that the lawful settlement of these John Voller, Elizabeth his wife and their son Abraham is in the Parish of Titchfield in the said County and so, therefore, require you the said Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor of the Parish of Durley or some or one of you to convey the said John Voller Elizabeth his wife and Abraham their son from and out of the said Parish of Durley to the said Parish of Titchfield and them to deliver to the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor there or some or one of them together with this our order at the same time showing them the original and we do also hereby require you the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor of the Parish of Titchfield to receive and provide for them as inhabitants of your Parish. Given under our hands and seals, the ninth day of May in the forty ninth year of the reign of our sovereign Lord King George the Third.”
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
East Sussex Record Office
PARISH OF WINCHELSEA
Catalogue Ref. PAR511
Former Catalogue Ref. PAR511
Creator(s):
Church of England, Winchelsea Parish, East Sussex
Settlement – ref. PAR511/32
Removal orders from Winchelsea
FILE – Removal order from Winchelsea – ref. PAR511/32/2/81 – date: 29 Nov 1825
[from Scope and Content] Abraham VOLLER (21) and his sister Ann VOLLER (12); to Titchfield in Hampshire.
01 Aug 1827
Marriage @ Ore, Sussex, England :
Abraham VOLLER = Elizabeth JONES
Elizabeth WARNER bap 07/10/1827 @ Ore, to Abraham & Elizabeth WARNER, Abraham a labourer
Mary Ann WARNER bap 05/12/1830 @ Ore, to Abraham & Elizabeth WARNER, Abraham a labourer
Jane WARNER bap 02/10/1834 @ Ore, to Abraham & Elizabeth WARNER, Abraham a labourer
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
East Sussex Record Office
PARISH OF HASTINGS ST CLEMENT
Catalogue Ref. PAR367 , Former Catalogue Ref. PAR367
Creator(s): Church of England, Hastings St Clement Parish, East Sussex
Overseers of the Poor: settlement – ref. PAR367/32
Removal orders to Hastings St Clement
FILE – Removal order to Hastings St Clement and settlement examination – ref.PAR367/32/3/230 – date: 20 Dec 1838
[from Scope and Content] Abraham VOLLER (34), wife Elizabeth, and his children Elizabeth (11), Mary Ann (8) and Jane (3); from Hastings All Saints; fifteen years ago he agreed with William HICKES of Burdett Place, Hastings St Clement, to serve him as a driver to a fly and general servant; left due to ill health and lived with friends at Winchelsea for fifteen months and then went to sea; 11 years ago he was married at Ore to Elizabeth and they have three children
FILE – Removal order to Hastings St Clement – ref. PAR367/32/3/231 – date: 20 Dec 1838
[from Scope and Content] Abraham VOLLER, wife Elizabeth, and his children Elizabeth (11), Mary Ann (8) and Jane (3); from Hastings All Saints
06 Jun 1841 Census of England & Wales
@ ??? White School, Guestling Rd, Ore, Sussex
Abraham WELLER 35 Ag Lab Y
Betsy WELLER 30 Y
Betsy WELLER 13 Y
Jane WELLER 06 Y
Archives NZ – REPRO 6, Nelson papers NZC 234/2.
Also, State Library of Victoria
Register of Emigrant Labourers applying for Free Passage to New Zealand; Reel 1480, Piece 272, 273 and in CO208, Reel 2569 Piece 275 which is the Index to 272 and 273.
Register of Emigrant Labourers applying for Free Passage to New Zealand [See Refgulations for the Selection of Emigrant Labourers]
Mar 1842
Application made to M.GILLINGHAM
5379 EARLE Richard & Filly, 32 & 30 yrs, brickmaker, residence Oare near Hastings, 2 sons age 12, 10 and 1 daughter age 3.
5380 WARNER Rich’d & Eliza, both 23 yrs, quarryman & blacksmith, residence Oare, near Hastings, one son aged 1 year, embarkation #2443.
5381 VOLLER, Abraham & Eliz’th, 32 & 31 yrs, Ag. Lab’r & Bricklayer & Quarryman, 3 daughters age 13, 12, 7. Embarkation #2563.
Thank you for an amazing amount of information. This is extremely helpful. I appreciate you putting up the information.
Oops sorry, the Wairau massacre was 1843 not 1853.
Hi,
I have researched Jane Isabella Greathead who wed Henry Thomas had Greytown hotel he died and she wed Robert Lucas.he died and she came to Sydney Australia she then supposed to have wed William GB Smith 1881 Born Manchester England between 1839 and 1844?.my mum from the Thomas line… Jane did return to NZ with Mr smith and child Isabella born 1886 NSW. farmed at Mount Egmont to 1902 where must returned to NSW cant find shipping list of there return around 1901 to 1905 or going there around 1895. any help greatfully received.Jane used ‘Isabella’ Smith in NZ. dianehutson60@yahoo.com.au
I’ve made a massive breakthrough with VOLLER and WARNER following on from the exttensive info I gave above.
I theorised that John VOLLER & Elizabeth WARNER might be one and the same couple as Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER. I was half right in that Elizabeth married to John and Elizabeth married to Joseph are indeed one and the same. She actually married BOTH men, but Joseph was then called Joseph ROLANDS, not WARNER. He was WARNER later.
The upshot is that Abraham VOLLER and Richard WARNER were half brothers.
See the vital documents below regarding three removals in three different directions, all on the same day 29 Nov 1925, involving the same family.
MARRIAGES – 1800-1836 Durley, Southampton, Hampshire, ENGLAND
Date 20 Sep 1803
Surname VOLLER
1st Name John
Parish Southwick
Spouse Surname WARNER
Spouse 1st Name Elizabeth
Spouse Parish Durley
Ancestry.com
London Metropolitan Archives
Baptisms solemnized in the Parish of All Saints Hastings in the County of Sussex in the Year 1819.
Page 66, No. 519.
When Baptized: March 10
Child’s Christian Name: Rich.d
Parents’ Christian Names: Joseph & Elizth
Surname: Warner
Abode: St Clem
Quality, Trade or Profession: Labourer
By Whom the Ceremony was performed: W. Whistler
Ancestry.com. England & Wales Christening Records, 1530-1906
Place: Hastings, Sussex, England; Collection: St Clement; -; Date Range: 1724 – 1869; Film Number: 1067177
Name:Robert WARNER
Gender:Male
Christening Date:21 Jun 1822
Christening Place:Hastings, Sussex, England
Father’s name:Joseph WARNER
Mother’s name:Elizabeth
England, Select Marriages, 1538-1973
https://www.ancestry.com/search/collections/fs1englandmarriages/
Name: Joseph RONALDY
Marriage Date: 2 Jul 1822
Marriage Place: St. Mary-In-The-Marsh, Kent, England
Spouse: Eliz WALLER
FHL Film Number: 1835665
Reference ID: item 2 p 8 no 23
Bishop’s transcripts Marriages 1813-1834, 1836
Church of England. Parish Church of St. Mary-in-the-Marsh
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_AMS2277_2330_25
Title: Settlement examination taken at Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: AMS 2330/25
Level: Item
Description: Elizabeth Ronalds: aged 47, born as Elizabeth Warner at Durley, Hampshire, hired by Mr Cousens of Bishops Waltham, Hampshire, then by John Cousins of Exton, Hampshire, about 22 years ago married John Voller of Titchfield at Durley, after several years he absconded, she was in Titchfield poorhouse, they had children Abraham (21 years), William (13 years) and Ann (12 years), co-habited with Joseph Ronalds and they have two illegitimate sons, Richard (5 years) born at the house of Tutt Hicks in Hastings, and Robert (3 years) born at Mr Bevill’s huts in Hastings, she and Joseph were married in Jul 1822 at St Mary in the Marsh, Kent.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_AMS2277_2330_24
Title: Settlement examination taken at Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: AMS 2330/24
Level: Item
Description:
Joseph Ronalds: aged 40, born at Sutton Cottow, Hampshire, aged 10 hired as an under carter by Mr Hickham of Sutton Cottow, then Mr Edney of Bullington, Mr Keansley of Manor Farm, Micheldelver, Mr German at Chidham in Hambledon, 13 years ago examined as to his settlement at Droxford, lived in St Clement Hastings before coming to Winchelsea, married about three years ago to Elizabeth Voller at St Mary in the Marsh, Kent
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_32_2_81
East Sussex Record Office
Title: Removal order from Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/32/2/81
Level: File
Description: Abraham Voller (21 years) and his sister Ann Voller (12 years); to Titchfield, Hampshire.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_32_2_79
Title: Removal order from Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/32/2/79
Level: File
Description:
Joseph Ronalds, his wife Elizabeth and their two illegitimate children, Richard (5 years) and Robert (3 years); the parents to Hambledon, Hampshire and the children to St Clement Hastings; endorsed: suspension of order on account of JR’s sickness, 29 Nov 1825
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_35_1_202
Title: Letter from William Friend, Hambledon, [Hampshire], vestry clerk to Charles Arnett, Winchelsea, [assistant] overseer
Date: 11 Dec 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/35/1/202
Level: File
Description:
In answer to your letter of the 9th instant the overseers of this parish request you will have the goodness to allow [Joseph] Ronalds what relief you think necessary during his illness. Should he require any assistance after his recovery it will be necessary for him to make application personally as none of the present overseers have any knowledge of him or his circumstances. Whenever you think proper to forward the account of what money you advance it shall be remitted
Creator(s)Parish of Winchelsea
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_35_1_204
Title: Letter from William Friend, Hambledon, [Hampshire], vestry clerk to Charles Arnett, Winchelsea, assistant overseer
Date: 24 Jan 1826
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/35/1/204
Level: File
Description:
I have enclosed £4 2s 0d the warrant expended by you on account of this parish of which I will thank you to acknowledge receipt by return of post; endorsed ‘Hambledon parish at Ronalds.’
06 Jun 1841 N=not born in county Y=born in county
@ ???? Cottages, All Saints, Hastings, Sussex
Joseph WARNER 70 N
Elizabeth WARNER 60 N
Robert WARNER 18 Y
Samuel DUNT? HUNT? 13 Sweep Y
16 Jul 1851 Death of Joseph WARNER @ the Union Workhouse, Ore, male, 85 years, labourer, old age.
Informant Joseph SHOESMITH [‘X’], Union Workhouse, Ore, present at the death.
Registered 17 Jul 1851, John CLOKE, registrar
[BDM]
Is NOT Elizabeth WARNER age 87, Widow, born Biton, Hereforshire in 1851 census.
Is NOT Elizabeth WARNER age 63, Widow, at Horsham Sussex, born Cranley, Surrey in 1851 census.
09 Nov 1851
Death of Elizabeth WARNER @ Ore, female, 73 years. General decay, dropsy.
Widow of Joseph WARNER, labourer. Informant Sarah Ann VOLLER,present at the death, Ore.
Registered 11/11/1851, John CLOKE, registrar.
[ BDM obtained at St Catherine’s House London in 1988 ]
Ok here we go. There has been a massive development!
Robert WARNER the brother of Richard WARNER was mostly known as VOLLER including for the births of all 20 of his children to two wives, Sarah Ann FOORD married 1843 at Ore and Mary Ann KENNARD married 1871 at Hastings. Robert was baptised Robert WARNER 1822 at Hastimgs St Clements and Richard WARNER was baptised 1819 at Hastings St Clements, the parents being given as Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER each time. Richard WARNER was known as VOLLER when his wife Eliza’s watch was stolen by her brother William WRIGHT.
Robert WARNER aka VOLLER was with his parents Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER in the 1841 census at Hastings All Saints whereas Richard WARNER was with his wife Eliza WRIGHT and their infant son in the household of Eliza’s parents, James & Elizabeth WRIGHT, at Ore, which is by Hastings.
Richard WARNER too his family from Ore to Nelson NZ in 1842 as did Abraham VOLLER in 1842 (arrived early 1843). Prior to the voyages Abraham received a letter from the NZ Company telling him that there was no room for him to sail in the same ship as R. WARNER.
Richard WARNER’s son Abraham VOLLER was raised out of the family, after the death of Eliza at Nelson in 1865 age 45, by Mary DOUGLAS who has to be Mary Ann VOLLER the daughter of Abraham VOLLER & Elisabeth JONES who married at Ore in 1827. When Mary Ann and her two sisters were baptised at Ore their father called himself Abraham WARNER.
In a previous message I gave the 29 Nov 1825 removal from Winchelsea to Titchfield of Abraham VOLLER and his sister Ann VOLLER. This would have occurred only if they were in need of poor relief, in which case they would have been removed to their official parish of settlement, mostly likely to the well established workhouse at Titchfield (Titchfield later became part of the Fareham Union).
BUT – Abraham VOLLER and Ann VOLLER were not the only family members to suffer a removal from Winchelsea on 29 Nov 1825! Their mother, their stepfather and their half brothers were also removed from Winchelsea on that date, going in three different directions due to their various parishes of settlement according to the poor laws.
i.e.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_AMS2277_2330_25
Title: Settlement examination taken at Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: AMS 2330/25
Level: Item
Description: Elizabeth Ronalds: aged 47, born as Elizabeth Warner at Durley, Hampshire, hired by Mr Cousens of Bishops Waltham, Hampshire, then by John Cousins of Exton, Hampshire, about 22 years ago married John Voller of Titchfield at Durley, after several years he absconded, she was in Titchfield poorhouse, they had children Abraham (21 years), William (13 years) and Ann (12 years), co-habited with Joseph Ronalds and they have two illegitimate sons, Richard (5 years) born at the house of Tutt Hicks in Hastings, and Robert (3 years) born at Mr Bevill’s huts in Hastings, she and Joseph were married in Jul 1822 at St Mary in the Marsh, Kent.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_AMS2277_2330_24
Title: Settlement examination taken at Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: AMS 2330/24
Level: Item
Description:
Joseph Ronalds: aged 40 years and upwards; born at Sutton Cotton [Sutton Scotney], Hampshire where his father was legally settled and his mother was relieved by the parish; aged 10 hired as an under carter by Mr Wickham of Sutton Cotton [Sutton Scotney], then Mr Edney of Bullington, Mr Keansley of Manor Farm, Micheldelver, Mr German at Chidham in Hambledon; 13 years ago examined as to his settlement at Droxford, Hampshire; lived in St Clement Hastings before coming to Winchelsea, married about three years ago to Elizabeth Voller at St Mary in the Marsh, Kent.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_32_2_81
East Sussex Record Office
Title: Removal order from Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/32/2/81
Level: File
Description: Abraham Voller (21 years) and his sister Ann Voller (12 years); to Titchfield, Hampshire.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_32_2_79
Title: Removal order from Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/32/2/79
Level: File
Description:
Joseph Ronalds, his wife Elizabeth and their two illegitimate children, Richard (5 years) and Robert (3 years); the parents to Hambledon, Hampshire and the children to St Clement Hastings; endorsed: suspension of order on account of JR’s sickness, 29 Nov 1825
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_35_1_202
Title: Letter from William Friend, Hambledon, [Hampshire], vestry clerk to Charles Arnett, Winchelsea, [assistant] overseer
Date: 11 Dec 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/35/1/202
Level: File
Description:
In answer to your letter of the 9th instant the overseers of this parish request you will have the goodness to allow [Joseph] Ronalds what relief you think necessary during his illness. Should he require any assistance after his recovery it will be necessary for him to make application personally as none of the present overseers have any knowledge of him or his circumstances. Whenever you think proper to forward the account of what money you advance it shall be remitted
Creator(s)Parish of Winchelsea
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_35_1_204
Title: Letter from William Friend, Hambledon, [Hampshire], vestry clerk to Charles Arnett, Winchelsea, assistant overseer
Date: 24 Jan 1826
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/35/1/204
Level: File
Description:
I have enclosed £4 2s 0d the warrant expended by you on account of this parish of which I will thank you to acknowledge receipt by return of post; endorsed ‘Hambledon parish at Ronalds.’
The two illegitimate sons to Joseph RONALDS and Elizabeth VOLLER nee WARNER have to be Richard WARNER aka VOLLER and Robert WARNER aka VOLLER the sons of Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER.
Find My Past
Marriages at St Mary-in-the-Castle, Kent
“Marriages solemnized in the parish of St Mary in the County of Kent in the Year 1822.
Joseph RONALDS of this parish and Eliz WALLER of this Parish were married in this Church by Banns this 2nd Day of July in the Year One Thusand eight hundred and 22
By me W. WEBSTER, Offic’ Min’r.
This Marriage was solemnized between us
X the Mark of Joseph RONALDS
X the Mark of Eliz WALLER
In the Presence of
John HILLS
X the Mark of Eliz TURNER”
So, when I theorised in my previous message that John VOLLER & Elizabeth WARNER might be the same couple as Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER, I was half right. The two Elizabeth are indeed the same person. John and Joseph are not the same person but Elizabeth married them both, John in 1803 at Durley and Joseph in 1822 at Kent.
We now have an explanation as to why Richard WARNER’s son Abraham WARNER was raised by Abraham VOLLER’s daughter Mary Ann MARSH nee VOLLER aka Mary DOUGLAS – because Richard WARNER and Abraham VOLLER were half-brothers. No wonder Abraham wanted to join the same ship to Nelson as Richard.
Joseph RONALDS aka WARNER was born at Sutton Scotney which is in WONSTON parish. The name there appears to be REYNOLDS rather than RONALDS. There is a chance that Joseph may have had a prior marriage at Wonston in 1809, with his wife and daughter to that marriage dying early, but it needs work to prove it or disprove it.
Elizabeth WARNER was born at Durley and married at Durley, but when she married John VOLLER she automatically acquired his settlement status at Titchfield (they were removed from Durley to Titchfield with their son Abraham in 1809). When she married Joseph RONALDS in 1822 she automatically acquired his settlement status at Hambledon instead. Abraham VOLLER and his sister Ann VOLLER in 1825 still had their father John VOLLER’s settlement status at Titchfield. The two illegitimate boys Richard & Robert born to Elizabeth and Joseph at Hastings St Clements (where the boys were also baptised) had Hastings as their settlement parishes by birth. Had Joseph married Elizabeth before their births (they married after their baptisms), then the boys would probably have been removed to Hambledon instead. In 1825 the strict application of the poor laws in relation to settlement status saw the family ripped asunder, heading in different directions.
So who were Elizabeth WARNER’s parents? There was only one WARNER family in Durley records so that Elizabeth has to belong to them. She was born about 1778 but I can’t find the baptism. John & Ann WARNER had children baptised at Durley: John 1781 (had thre daughters at Durley to Elizabeth but I lost track of them after that), Mary 1782 (buried 1804), Abraham 1785 (single, died 1854 in the Union workhouse at Droxford and was buried at Durley) and Robert 1788. The parents married at neighbouring Bishops Waltham parish in 1778, he residing Durley and she residing Bishops Waltham. John was buried at Durley 1787 and Ann was buried at Durley in 1832.
There’s no sign of a WARNER family at Durley either prior to that family of after the births of the son John’s daughters. I’m wondering if son John and family emigrated somewhere.
Son Robert had a daughter Ann WARNER, probably baptised at Alverstoke 1813, mother Elizabeth. Ann married her first cousin William VOLLER, the brother of Abraham VOLLER, in 1843 at Camberwell in London. They had three children, William who was still in his mother’s household single and well into his forties,Ann who died young, and George who married Harriet but appears to have had no children, i.e. William and Ann possibly have no descendants. Ann’s father was in their household in the 1851 census and he probably died 1855. William may have died 1870.
I am unable to find out what happened to Ann VOLLER the sister of Abraham VOLLER after they suffered the removal to Titchfield in 1825. I don’t know where she was born or baptised but she was a year younger than William. William was baptised at Titchfield in 1812 but there in no baptism for Ann in Titchfield OPR. Every time I notice a marriage possibility for Ann it turns out that it can’t be her.
Elizabeth RONALDS ex VOLLER nee WARNER is Elizabeth WARNER who died at Ore in 1851, the informant at the death being her daughter-in-law Sarah Ann VOLLER the wife of Robert WARNER aka Robert VOLLER.
09 Nov 1851
Death of Elizabeth WARNER @ Ore, female, 73 years. General decay, dropsy.
Widow of Joseph WARNER, labourer. Informant Sarah Ann VOLLER,present at the death, Ore.
Registered 11/11/1851, John CLOKE, registrar.
[ BDM obtained at St Catherine’s House London in 1988 ]
12 Nov 1851
Burial of Elizabeth WARNER, 75
[ Ore OPR Burials, Bishop’s Transcript – East Sussex County Record Office, Lewes ]
Her husband Joseph predeceased her in the workhouse at Ore a few months before.
16 Jul 1851 Death of Joseph WARNER @ the Union Workhouse, Ore, male, 85 years, labourer, old age.
Informant Joseph SHOESMITH [‘X’], Union Workhouse, Ore, present at the death.
Registered 17 Jul 1851, John CLOKE, registrar
[BDM]
19 Jul 1851 Burial of Joseph WARNER, 85
[ Ore OPR Burials, Bishop’s Transcript – East Sussex County Record Office, Lewes ]
I have been ujnable to find any certain regarding the fate of John VOLLER after he deserted the family. One assumes that he was dead by 1822 when wife Elizabeth married Joseph RONALDS, but was he?
I neglected to spell out that the two boys Richard & Robert born at St Clements to Elizabeth VOLLER nee WARNER & Joseph RONALDS have to be Richard & Joseph WARNER baptised at Hastings st Clements to Joseph & Elizabeth WARNER. In other words, Joseph RONALDS and Joseph WARNER are the same man.
Settlement Certificates and Settlement Examinations :
The Poor Law Act of 1601 had declared that every parish was responsible for its own poor. Naturally, parishes did not want to be liable for the relief of poor from another parish also, and so the concept of ‘settlement’ arose. Anyone ‘settled’ in a parish had a right to relief from it, and others did not. But people have always travelled in search of work, whether seasonal or long-term. To prevent any hindrance to this, settlement certificates were first authorised by an Act of Parliament of 1662. A settlement certificate was a document addressed by one parish or township to another. It was issued by the churchwardens and overseers of the poor to a resident of the parish who intended to live elsewhere. Its purpose was to certify that the person named in the certificate (and if appropriate, his or her dependents) was legally settled in the parish of origin. It meant that the issuing parish would receive back the named person and dependents if it became necessary to provide them with poor relief or pay for the relief of the person in the parish in which they were living. The certificate was lodged with the overseers of the new parish who retained it as an insurance. In this way, the certificates found their way into the parish chest and from there finally into the archives. Probably only a fraction of the certificates which were once issued now survive. In law, settlement for poor law purposes in a parish or township could be acquired in a number of ways. Naturally, most people acquired a settlement from their place of birth or, for women, through marriage, which gave them their husband’s settlement rights. Other ways of acquiring a right of settlement were through completing an apprenticeship, renting or buying a substantial property or serving in a public office, such as churchwarden, constable, overseer of the poor, or parish clerk. Anyone who applied for relief and was not accepted as legally ‘settled’ in the parish or township would have their origins investigated to discover where their true place of settlement actually was. This process was known as a ‘settlement examination’. This was conducted before two magistrates, who questioned the person about their life-history. The resulting document can be of great value to family historians, as it may include details of the various places where the person had lived, what employment they had at various times and information about their family. [http://www.doncaster.gov.uk/Leisure_in_Doncaster/Museums_and_history/Archives_and_Local_history/family_local_history/Settlement_Certificates.asp ]
I sent a lengthy piece which for some reason has suddenly disappeared after I sent an addition.
Find My Past
Marriages at St Mary-in-the-Castle, Kent
“Marriages solemnized in the parish of St Mary in the County of Kent in the Year 1822.
Joseph RONALDS of this parish and Eliz WALLER of this Parish were married in this Church by Banns this 2nd Day of July in the Year One Thusand eight hundred and 22
By me W. WEBSTER, Offic’ Min’r.
This Marriage was solemnized between us
X the Mark of Joseph RONALDS
X the Mark of Eliz WALLER
In the Presence of
John HILLS
X the Mark of Eliz TURNER”
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_AMS2277_2330_25
Title: Settlement examination taken at Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: AMS 2330/25
Level: Item
Description: Elizabeth Ronalds: aged 47, born as Elizabeth Warner at Durley, Hampshire, hired by Mr Cousens of Bishops Waltham, Hampshire, then by John Cousins of Exton, Hampshire, about 22 years ago married John Voller of Titchfield at Durley, after several years he absconded, she was in Titchfield poorhouse, they had children Abraham (21 years), William (13 years) and Ann (12 years), co-habited with Joseph Ronalds and they have two illegitimate sons, Richard (5 years) born at the house of Tutt Hicks in Hastings, and Robert (3 years) born at Mr Bevill’s huts in Hastings, she and Joseph were married in Jul 1822 at St Mary in the Marsh, Kent.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_AMS2277_2330_24
Title: Settlement examination taken at Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: AMS 2330/24
Level: Item
Description:
Joseph Ronalds: aged 40 years and upwards; born at Sutton Cotton [Sutton Scotney], Hampshire where his father was legally settled and his mother was relieved by the parish; aged 10 hired as an under carter by Mr Wickham of Sutton Cotton [Sutton Scotney], then Mr Edney of Bullington, Mr Keansley of Manor Farm, Micheldelver, Mr German at Chidham in Hambledon; 13 years ago examined as to his settlement at Droxford, Hampshire; lived in St Clement Hastings before coming to Winchelsea, married about three years ago to Elizabeth Voller at St Mary in the Marsh, Kent.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_32_2_81
East Sussex Record Office
Title: Removal order from Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/32/2/81
Level: File
Description: Abraham Voller (21 years) and his sister Ann Voller (12 years); to Titchfield, Hampshire.
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_32_2_79
Title: Removal order from Winchelsea
Date: 29 Nov 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/32/2/79
Level: File
Description:
Joseph Ronalds, his wife Elizabeth and their two illegitimate children, Richard (5 years) and Robert (3 years); the parents to Hambledon, Hampshire and the children to St Clement Hastings; endorsed: suspension of order on account of JR’s sickness, 29 Nov 1825
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_35_1_202
Title: Letter from William Friend, Hambledon, [Hampshire], vestry clerk to Charles Arnett, Winchelsea, [assistant] overseer
Date: 11 Dec 1825
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/35/1/202
Level: File
Description:
In answer to your letter of the 9th instant the overseers of this parish request you will have the goodness to allow [Joseph] Ronalds what relief you think necessary during his illness. Should he require any assistance after his recovery it will be necessary for him to make application personally as none of the present overseers have any knowledge of him or his circumstances. Whenever you think proper to forward the account of what money you advance it shall be remitted
Creator(s)Parish of Winchelsea
https://www.thekeep.info/collections/getrecord/GB179_PAR511_35_1_204
Title: Letter from William Friend, Hambledon, [Hampshire], vestry clerk to Charles Arnett, Winchelsea, assistant overseer
Date: 24 Jan 1826
Repository: East Sussex Record Office
ESRO reference: PAR 511/35/1/204
Level: File
Description:
I have enclosed £4 2s 0d the warrant expended by you on account of this parish of which I will thank you to acknowledge receipt by return of post; endorsed ‘Hambledon parish at Ronalds.’